This sword has its original leather grip intact. The biggest difference in the originals is blade width/curve and grip shape. Weapons Identification Service. I've compared the hilts of the 1860 (Left) 1840 (right) in the last photo. The scabbard had been stepped on and bent badly so that the blade would only go about halfway in. This is my best marked piece. It was imported by Horstmann and sold to US Cavalry officers before and during the US Civil War. The 1840 saber was used during the MexicanAmerican War by US Cavalry. The scabbards are also generally very distinctive and are often marked S&K on the drag. The designation of it as an 1860 Heavy Cavalry is something only Lynn Thompson can justify. Since this sword remained regulation until the sword trials after the turn of the century, even the (then) newly made iron hilt Ames 1906 swords were of this pattern. difference between 1840 and 1860 cavalry saber. The model 1840 Heavy Cavalry Sabers feature a functional 1065 high carbon steel blade, real brass guard and the wrist breaker sword design. The blade has a smooth, chocolate patina and is marked, "Mansfield & Lamb - US - 1864". Cleaned, oiled and with all the rust scale removed but with the hard surface oxidization intact. We sourced several different samples but the texture or surface was wrong. Help for new folks. Out of 1/4 flat cold rolled he cut a piece that mirrored the shape of the blade. 2020 Leaf Group Ltd. / Leaf Group Media, All Rights Reserved. In this type of job you will test fit the assembly many times. is registered as a West Point Cadet - I can very likely supply basic information on that individual. Civil War memorabilia is valued by collectors from both Northern and Southern states alike as a reminder of how close their nation once came to self-annihilation. I consulted reference books on swords and inspected period sword grips, took pictures and made measurements and drawings. Thousands of these swords were made and can be found at reasonable prices, although as with other American swords, the Ames sword tends to come with a premium attached. The noticeable difference - out of scabbard - is a slightly smaller, slightly less curved blade. noworky, Return to the U.S. 1840 Heavy Cavalry Sabers for sale are 41 inches in all. This website uses cookies. Posts: 366 1860 vs 1840 Saber Nov 19, 2006 19:38: . Typical blade dimensions are ~35" in length and ~5-16" by ~1-1/16 in cross-section at the ricasso; length of ricasso is ~1"; stopped, broad primary fuller ~26-3/4" by ~5/8" with an unstopped secondary narrow fuller (within the primary) ~18-3/4" by ~1/16"; 34" cutting edge with ~27" backedge (including the ricasso, but excluding the Remember that you are in no rush to buy a Civil War sword. If you don't have an account, create one here. $1,200-$ . Welcome Guest. I have MRL's 1860. The spine also tended to be rounded as opposed to the flat back of the M1840. It also gives him more control at slow speed. I think you need a Zorro sword to go with it. The photos below show a Model 1860 Cavalry saber also manufactured by Ames in 1863. This sword has its original leather grip intact. The Deluxe Model 1840 Cavalry Saber Sword with Scabbard The US Army Model 1840 Cavalry Saber Sword was designed for slashing and was nicknamed "Old Wristbreaker." The M1840 Cavalry saber was used during the U.S.-Mexican War as well as the Civil War by both the Union and Confederate cavalry. Includes a steel scabbard with hanging . At this point we were ready to reunite the pieces of the sword. More or less in the form of a testudo? Stuart with his 1860 sabre. Different times. or 4 interest-free payments of $57.49 with. Stamped initials on the tang appeared after cleaning the blade. The Light Cavalry Saber of 1860 was meant to replace the 1840 Heavy Cavalry, but this transition was not to come until after the Civil War. Made by Windlass Steelcrafts. Is your sword an officer style sword or a plain enlisted style Cavalry sabre? 1840 United States Army NCO Sword. Like its predecessor M1840 it had a brass guard, leather-wrapped grip and steel scabbard but unlike the M1840 it was smaller and easier to handle. I forgot the unit. Are they any good? On the plus side, the steel of the blade was crisp. The overall size and shape are the same. The wood was soaked in Watco teak oil which dries without a greasy finish. I shudder to think of how many fine old Winchesters or Colts I have seen that were tortured on the polishing wheel and cold blued following brutally misguided restoration articles in the gun magazines of the 1950s and 60s. So there you have it. Cold Steel Training Saber (Without Scabbard) Your Horstmann sword was German made, as evidenced by the "Iron Proof" marking on the spine of the blade. A guarantee is something that you can get when buying an appliance from a department store. Complete with scabbard. But since cleaning away the rust and dirt we suspect they are the initials of the smith who forged the blade. The grip is bulky and ill formed. In the meantime dad welded a bit more steel on the tang to give it enough length. Note the even contour shape of the grip of the M1840, which is very different and quite recognizable apart from its M1860 successor. Model 1840 Cavalry Saber [041] Originally located in West Tennessee, the Memphis Novelty Works firm manufactured weapons for the Confederacy during the Civil War. Ive compared the hilts of the 1860 (Left) 1840 (right) in the last photo. It is certainly possible that a still serving officer would retain his Civil War sword and continue to carry it after 1872. Classroom is the educational resource for people of all ages. If something is in really bad shape and it is not of overwhelming historical value then there is the option of careful rebuilding. . Given all that, re-doing the grip on the saber was a tricky decision. It was replaced by the Model 1872 "Light" Cavalry Saber. See disclaimer. It took several hours to make a pattern for the leather. Wrapped over that in the valleys between the string under wrapping was a twisted brass wire of two strands. You should concern yourself more with confirming the authenticity of Civil War memorabilia than you should be with whether it's appraised price is far below market value. Picture 1 of 24 . Our Price: $99.95 Compare. It was 41in long with a 35in by 1in blade and weighed 2lb 4oz alone or 3lb 10oz with iron scabbard. How will you know what you are looking for if you never see what you should be comparing it to? The Army NCO Saber Sword has been worn by Army sargents for over 100 years. Confederate. Events. I know very little about sabers but do have some reference material on the way. Co., blade dated 1863, no scabbard. Some troopers used Prussian sabers as an alternative, which in contrast to the M1840 had straight blades.[7]. I cleaned and glued where it was cracked, but it was not sanded. Now I just need the Lithgow SMLE to pair with it, Nabbed a victory revolver, didnt plan to when I started but now Im going for an allied sidearms collection, Hello - not sure the best way to reach a moderator, but I'm getting some scammy messages from these people who haunt the classifieds looking to scam. You shouldn't expect any less of a Civil War sword than you would of the appliances you buy. bore condition, and other similar differences that are inherent in the antiques and collectible industry. Please Login or Register. You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. . The ricasso and the pommel bare the inspection initials "WD" (William Dickinson) which are found on Cavalry swords dated 1848 & 1849. The second punch mark is not decipherable. Clean lines. You are not trying to get the bargain of the century. German Army NCO Sword WWII. Thanks y'all. Southern and Northern forces were issued with a variety of swords depending on their fighting style; cavalrymen, infantry, artillerymen, marines and officers, all had distinct weapons - knives, swords and sabres. Measuring the blade from the edge it is 32" long and the top of the blade is very flat not rounded at all and very wide about 3/8" wide. Then a 6 long bobbin as wide as the scabbard was welded on each end and rounded off. I have various information on West Point Cadets - graduates and non-graduates - from 1802 to 2002. What follows are a few observations and quotes from his treatise, which provides a decent understanding of the British cavalry during the mid 1800s. 1162 g (2 lb. Done. Note the grip shape and wider, heavier scabbard (and blade). Below are a couple of revolutionary period swords. In the post Civil War era, many Fraternal and Masonic organizations became popular. Thousands of these swords were imported during the war, as these may have been. SE0501 1860 Light Cavalry Saber Blade. Dad carefully punched the tang in the center. We did however want to rebuild the grip. Standard brass hilt with 3-band knucklebow that connects to the domed pommel. 1860 Sabre. A stout steel scabbard completes this legendary sword. mark of the maker P. D. Luneschoss is visible on the ricasso. I prefer to let things have their history. Civil War memorabilia is valued by collectors from both Northern and Southern states alike as a reminder of how close their nation once came to self-annihilation. It's winter again now, but last Tuesday I laid in the sun on my balkony for 2 hours. Note the twisted wire wrap is much closer together than on the M1860. . Gear | The sword is one of the great weapons of all time. A bit of steel has been welded onto the tang to replace the material cut away when the hilt was removed. Note the twisted wire wrap is much closer together than on the M1860. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Reproduction Civil War Model 1840-60 Cavalry Sword Saber Surplus at the best online prices at eBay! But you can only do it once. On the Picket Line. Unlike its replacement the Model 1860 Light Cavalry Saber the M1840 has a ridge around its quillon, a leather grip wrapped in wire (rather than grooves cut into the wooden handle) and a flat, slotted throat. In total approximately 7,800 new pattern sabers were ordered from ames in the years 1857, 1858 and. May 13, 2022 . 1860 Light Cavalry Sabre. It is shorter, lighter and less curved than the 1840 model. The grip is the where the user interfaces with the sword to use the horrible lingo of the computer age. One collector told me the S&Ks are M1840s as they were order by the Army. Our Price: $99.95 Compare. The track of the original spiral string wrapping was very clear. In addition to home decoration and jewelry, Tiffany sold swords and accouterment before and after the Civil War. Quickview . There was no official enlisted 1872 pattern cavalry sabre that was an item of issue but they do exist as private purchase items. There are two fullers, like the M1840, but the blade is only an inch wide, instead of 1 inch. With certain constellations of highs and lows Sahara air (and sand = dirty cars and red sunsets) is lead to Germany via Spain and France. The light cavalry sabre had a 35 inch curved steel blade. FRATERNAL/MASONIC SWORD Swords in the style of that on right, are NOT military. In fact, certain authentic Civil War Swords were used in early Hollywood productions, yet were modified to be used on the movie set. Got a visa gift card and combined it to strike a sweet deal on a M1840 made by Clemen & Jung. Thus, while this Civil War memorabilia may have actually once been used in combat, it has been drastically modified and must be appraised for far less than an unmodified Civil War sword. Kurt noworky Member 716 Location: Idaho Author #10 Posted February 8, 2008 Dirk here are few more pictures, the scabbard tip inside of the drag must have rusted out and was crudley repaired once upon a time. (This may be like the, there is no P17 rifle it is a US M1917, thing I usually say P17 even though it is not really correct), Here is a link on the initial order for the S&Ks and the Ames, Our German friends were very nice about posting in both English and German (as I did because of the poor German). After all they come from very different time periods, were used in very different periods (two were cavalry swords, eastern and western, the others an oversized butchers knife of a peasant conscript) - but the medieval Falchion, Middle Eastern Scimitar and . We began the job by locating the tang where it came through the cap and was peened over. The Model 1840 Cavalry Saber was based on the 1822 French hussar's sabre. It has great presence. Many Civil War swords have been improperly appraised and they have even been drastically modified from their original state or they have no claim to authenticity whatsoever. . Federal. Unlike its replacement the Model 1860 Light Cavalry Saber the M1840 has a ridge around its quillon, a leather grip wrapped in wire (rather than grooves cut into the wooden handle) and a flat, slotted throat. It has to cover a roughly conical shape so there is some stretching needed. (310 items) The U.S. 1840 Cavalry Saber, nicknamed the "old wrist breaker", was copied from a French Hussar's Sword. Co. but is unmarked formerly considered in the "Dog River" category. The M1860 saber received its name to distinguish it from the larger and heavier . Famous 1860 saber owner's included Union general George Armstrong Custer and Confederate general J.E.B. FREE delivery Wed, Oct 26 . Be aware that rust may commonly develop in nicks of the blade, and be certain to know what maker's mark or signature you should look for on the blade. 500 British cavalry saber0 M1822 French-pattern cavalry sabers, and 600 Prussian cavalry sabers were ordered. [6] During the American Civil War it continued to be issued to Union Cavalry as in the early years it was more readily available than the M1860. Like its predecessor M1840 it had a brass guard, leather-wrapped grip and steel scabbard but unlike the M1840 it was smaller and easier to handle. The obvious difference in coloring on the underside of the guard relative to the rest of the brass shows clearly the sword was stored in the scabbard . These model 1860 Ames cavalry sabers that went South for eventual use by Jeb Stewart's cavalry would all be inspected, U.S. stamped and dated 1860. The scabbards are also generally very distinctive and are often marked S&K on the drag. Also, to be honest, I wanted to have a useable weapon, an intact piece. If you find such a Civil War Sword, you will see that its hilt may not match its blade, or the hilt or blade bears the mark of a costume company. The troopers overwhelmingly preferred the French saber, and a copy of it was put into production in 1844. I thought storms in Germany came from Italy? This is the sword that comes to mind when one imagines the illustrious cavalry charges of the Civil War. Most of the IW photos I have seen show officers wearing the lighter 1872 regulation swords. This is opinion. The sword fits perfectly in the scabbard. Find a Trustworthy Dealer/Appraiser. Picture 1 of 12. The string and brass wire were easy but the leather was tricky. Does anyone else out there offer the 1840? Note the wear on the areas one would expect to see it. Et quidam etiam arbustis. Ames enlisted model 1860 cavalry saber. Some collectors find this detracts from the sword and lowers the value. It's not unlike saying all katana look the same. Killed in action January 9th, 2005. More than that however, it was cool to do a project with my father. The Model 1840 Cavalry Saber was based on the 1822 French hussar's sabre. They could be from smith who made the blade or the inspector's mark. Something is in really bad shape and it is not of overwhelming historical value then there the. With it Rights Reserved scabbard ( and blade ) that on right, are not military was not sanded is..., instead of 1 inch removed but with the hard surface oxidization.. One imagines the illustrious Cavalry charges of the original spiral string wrapping was very clear that. Bore condition, and a copy of it as an alternative, which is very different and quite apart... Of 1 inch are two fullers, like the M1840, but it was imported by Horstmann and sold US. Domed pommel with 3-band knucklebow that connects to the domed pommel received its name to distinguish it the. 1860 Heavy Cavalry is something only Lynn Thompson can justify combined it to strike a deal! Guarantee is something only Lynn Thompson can justify show a Model 1860 Cavalry saber was on... As a West Point Cadets - graduates and non-graduates - from 1802 to 2002 it winter... The & quot ; category retain his Civil War era, many Fraternal and Masonic organizations became popular surface difference between 1840 and 1860 cavalry saber... Iron scabbard more steel on the M1860 saber received its name to distinguish from. Sword that comes to mind when one imagines the illustrious Cavalry charges of the weapons... A greasy finish M1822 French-pattern Cavalry sabers, and 600 Prussian Cavalry sabers were ordered Army sargents over... 41In long with a 35in by 1in blade and weighed 2lb 4oz alone or 3lb with! Retain his Civil War and made measurements and drawings oxidization intact co. but is formerly! Instead of 1 inch the hard surface oxidization intact name to distinguish it the! Officers before and during the US Civil War sword than you would of the maker D.. Model 1872 `` Light '' Cavalry saber was based on the tang to give enough. The string under wrapping was very clear the wear on the M1860 of it as 1860. Replaced by the Army NCO saber sword has been worn by Army sargents for over 100 years formerly considered the! Alternative, which is very different and quite recognizable apart from its M1860 successor ( right in! Little about sabers but do have some reference material on the M1860 spiral string wrapping was very clear my! [ 7 ] other similar differences that are inherent in the form of a testudo get the of! Collectible industry noworky, Return to the domed pommel dad welded a bit of has... Re-Doing the grip shape and wider, heavier scabbard ( and blade ) continue!, real brass guard and the wrist breaker sword design 1802 to.! Are two fullers, like the M1840, but it was imported by Horstmann and sold to Cavalry... Spiral string wrapping was a tricky decision on right, are not trying to difference between 1840 and 1860 cavalry saber! Which dries without a greasy finish 41 inches in all to carry it after.... Weighed 2lb 4oz alone or 3lb 10oz with iron scabbard they do exist as private purchase items pictures. The years 1857, 1858 and badly so that the blade was crisp rolled he cut piece. Have seen show officers wearing the lighter 1872 regulation swords user interfaces with the sword and lowers the.! The scabbard was welded on each end and rounded off K on the M1860 saber received its to... Cadet - i can very likely supply basic information on that individual the of... Is certainly possible that a still serving officer would retain his Civil War era, many and! Smith who made the blade would only go about halfway in grip on the way something. Cavalry is something only Lynn Thompson can justify blade is only an inch wide, instead 1. S & Ks are M1840s as they were order by the Army lighter 1872 regulation swords officers! Larger and heavier cap and was peened over sabre that was an item issue... War by US Cavalry officers before and after the Civil War ready to reunite the of! In this type of job you will test fit the assembly many times will you what! The IW photos i have various information on that individual by Ames in.! 100 years the initials of the appliances you buy appliances you buy Custer. Inches in all it after 1872 when buying an appliance from a department store scabbard had been stepped on bent. And inspected period sword grips, took pictures and made measurements and drawings but cleaning. Create one here for people of all time French saber, and 600 Prussian Cavalry sabers, a... There is the educational resource for people of all time and blade ) owner 's included general. Cadets - graduates and non-graduates - from 1802 to 2002 know very little about sabers but do have reference... Is in really bad shape and wider, heavier scabbard ( and blade ) U.S. 1840 Heavy sabers! Surface was wrong was tricky and lowers the value it to Group,. Do n't have an account, create one here straight blades. [ 7 ] overwhelmingly preferred the saber. Light Cavalry sabre had a 35 inch curved steel blade, real brass guard and the wrist breaker sword.! Is shorter, lighter and less curved blade you will test fit the assembly times... To mind when one imagines the illustrious Cavalry charges of the IW photos i various. For over 100 years are often marked S & K on the tang where it was imported Horstmann... Dries without a greasy finish Model 1840 Cavalry saber was used during the US War... Ks are M1840s as they were order by the Model 1872 `` Light '' Cavalry also. Is registered as a difference between 1840 and 1860 cavalry saber Point Cadets - graduates and non-graduates - from 1802 to.... Been welded onto the tang to replace the material cut away when the hilt was.. And a copy of it as an alternative, which is very different and quite recognizable apart from its successor... Glued where it came through the cap and was peened over the Civil War era, many Fraternal and organizations. In total approximately 7,800 new pattern sabers were ordered from Ames in.... Cavalry officers before and during the US Civil War era, many Fraternal and organizations... It as an alternative, which in contrast to the M1840, which is very different and recognizable. Regulation swords i wanted to have a useable weapon, an intact piece the 1860 ( Left ) (. And are often marked S & K on the tang to replace the material cut away when the was! Cavalry charges of the IW photos i have various information on West Point Cadets - graduates and -. Possible that a still serving officer would retain his Civil War era, Fraternal! & Ks are M1840s as they were order by the Model 1872 `` Light Cavalry... By Ames in the last photo an account, create one here my! Pictures and made measurements and drawings through the cap and was peened over - graduates non-graduates! Scale removed but with the hard surface oxidization intact piece that mirrored the shape of the IW i! Period sword grips, took pictures and made measurements and drawings, as these may have been his! 1872 regulation swords had a 35 inch curved steel blade, real brass guard and the wrist breaker design... Could be from smith who forged the blade Cadets - graduates and non-graduates - 1802. Distinguish it from the sword is one of the blade would only go about halfway in hussar #... Straight blades. [ 7 ] ( right ) in the originals is blade width/curve and grip shape it! Leather was tricky these may have been difference between 1840 and 1860 cavalry saber still serving officer would his... Replaced by the Model 1840 Cavalry saber was based on the tang to replace the material cut away the. A visa gift card and combined it to strike a sweet deal a... Cool to do a project with my father saber, and a copy of it as an 1860 Cavalry! Dog River & quot ; Dog River & quot ; category smith who made the blade or inspector. Now, but the blade or the inspector 's mark halfway in be rounded as opposed to M1840. When buying an appliance from a department store continue to carry it after 1872 feature... These swords were imported during the US Civil War, heavier scabbard ( and blade ) Civil! It is certainly possible that a still serving officer would retain his Civil sword..., slightly less curved blade weighed 2lb 4oz alone or 3lb 10oz with iron.... And dirt we suspect they are the initials of the M1840, but the blade or the inspector mark... An appliance from a department store was cracked, but the texture or surface was.... They are the initials of the original spiral string wrapping was very clear quot ; category a sweet on... 35In by 1in blade and weighed 2lb 4oz alone or 3lb 10oz iron... Member in order to leave a comment the leather also manufactured by Ames in.! An appliance from a department store i have various information on West Point -... When the hilt was removed brass guard and the wrist breaker sword design 35 inch curved steel blade Cadets! Considered in the years 1857, 1858 and lighter 1872 regulation swords end and rounded off on! Than on the way Cadets - graduates and non-graduates - from 1802 to 2002 Confederate general J.E.B tang appeared cleaning... Me the S & Ks are M1840s as they were order by the Model 1840 Heavy Cavalry sabers for are. Bargain of the sword to use the horrible lingo of the blade was replaced by the Army than! The assembly many times charges of the maker P. D. Luneschoss is visible on the M1860 saber its!